Ryan Gill ([info]montieth) wrote,
@ 2008-04-23 17:13:00
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Feminism
I was recently asked about my perspective on feminism. As someone who was raised by a mother who struggled with men in her life (nothing physically abusive but verbal abuse can be a 'challenge') I am, I think a equality minded person. My earliest memories of fixing things are with my mother and I doing the work and my stepfather, ( a Harvard Medical School Doctor ) unable to wrap his brain around simple mechanical systems.



I happened across this blog post on another blog. It's about a feminist review of Firefly and more or less excoriates it. What strikes me is this is an example of the feminism that I cannot understand. I approached feminism from an innocent view of people do what they're able to do, it's not about skin color or chromosomes which allows or do not allow a lot of basic skills or abilities. It's a lot more complex, related to learned skills, education and perhaps, some knacks that are genetic but are by no means absolutes (there's a whole discussion of nature vs nurture and how I strongly believe that its' more complex than black and white, but that's another discussion).

Ultimately though, my views are based on allowing people to prove themselves by their own acts and abilities and not on preconceived notions. This applies across the board based on race/gender/culture/etc. I suppose, that to a certain point, I am culturally biased. There are however established norms that are SOLIDLY based on repeated observation that one can find in cultures. Japanese have very established differences from Americans and from Germans. If you ignore those kinds of differences you best not go into anything related to international relations.

Anyhow, back on track, gender. Women are different than men. That's a provable fact. Women tend, to have less muscle mass and horsepower as it were than men do. I am however a rather light weight man, I've stayed bookish over my life and erred on the side of reading and leverage with tools rather than brute force. There are women, who, I'm certain could take me, easily and not work up a sweat doing so. I have never thought that women were lesser creatures, just that some were less or more than other men are less or more in different areas of capability (this can be academic areas, physical strength and dexterity based skills). Ultimately, I can establish that there is one universal truth. People are different. That is to say, individuals are different, one woman or man is stronger or weaker than another woman or man. It can be race, culture, gender, location of birth (take a look at a Gurkha and their barrel chests) and genetics which are either positive or negative factors towards a given set of skills or abilities. Any one is Not necessarily a boon or a curse for a given skill set. They just adjust certain parameters. Again people are different.

What I find, utterly wrong with the feminism that is described and illustrated in [info]_allecto_'s blog, is the application of reverse discrimination, or an illustration of misandry. She ignores that Mal was historically Zoe's commander through a very difficult period of a war which his sense for danger allowed her to survive. Her skills with weapons in turn assisted Mal in his survival. It's a two way street. Moreover, they have no sexual tension as woman/man and that is shown, solidly in one episode. They are as best as one could ever see, a pair of people working together. That Allecto claims this is misogyny because Mal tells Zoe to shut up or because he is her commander is a prime example. She ignores that Mal utterly trusts Zoe with his life, more so because she COULD kill him were she to wish to. She is the physically more capable of the pair. This ignores that Zoe very much threatens violence against Jayne on more than one occasion, in one case very vehemently in the Serenity movie over a point of Mal being the captain. Zoe is the one who bristles, not Mal. Is that an example of misandry? A woman defending a man who is perfectly capable of doing so? No, it is not. It's a loyal crewman maintaining the chain of command. Zoe is the 1st officer, that is her job.

In another case, Zoe's own husband is half she is where it comes to physical prowess and strength. He goes on a mission with Mal, in a sense out of jealousy of the time and bond Mal has with his wife. The episode, firmly establishes that Wash cannot do what his wife does. Is that also misandry or just an example of people are different? I say it's the simple, people are different. What would be scary would be if Allecto says that its not misandry BUT that it is misogyny if the gender roles are reversed. I shall have to ask her, though I expect I'll not get an honest reply.

The thing is, I firmly believe that most people are prejudiced in some way or another. The question is whether they let honor rule their behavior or whether they let their preconceptions rule their behavior. Very few people are not prejudiced in some way or another. Firefly shows the honor AND the problems that people have, but also shows how people, with fewer rules on how they SHOULD act based on their race or gender or gender role should judge people on actions and principles not on preconceptions. The characters are not perfect, they show that, but they struggle to be the best they want to be. Not what other people say they should be but who they want to be. How can that sort of ideal be in opposition to general principles of equality?


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[info]nicker
2008-04-23 11:40 pm UTC (link)
Bear in mind there are women who get absolutely indignant if a man opens a car door for them. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen/heard it on more than one occasion.

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[info]hellsop
2008-04-23 11:46 pm UTC (link)
A complicating factor is that *many* people have a tendency to blame difficulties that exist on a personal level on a class distinction. That is, it's easier to think that another doesn't like them because they're female/black/Jewish/male/Latino/Korean/German/etc rather than the other finds them personally reprehensible.

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[info]mattcaron
2008-04-30 01:27 pm UTC (link)
Or that they are personally flawed. "You were not promoted because your code sucks, not because you are a woman".

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[info]hellsop
2008-04-30 02:13 pm UTC (link)
*nod* That's approximately how I meant it. The idea that they are individually flawed is less comfortable than that someone else is a *-ist of some stripe.

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[info]paladyn
2008-04-24 12:48 am UTC (link)
IMHO [info]_allecto_ falls in the vein of an extremist chasing after her "white whale". Criticisms of Firefly aside after reading the first page of her posting and the subsequent comments that followed, she's...well....y'know....

She will find something critical about every action and nuance. Readily she admits to be a radical feminist, which isn't all that much different than a neo-con, a member of ELF, or a wahabist.

A lot of her "flawed" findings can also be attributed to a lack of understanding of certain human behaviors, such as Mal and Zoe's relationship.

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[info]chthonia
2008-04-24 01:47 am UTC (link)
I like the way you think. At any rate, it's how I see things, too.

Does anyone know how old allecto is? Many young women go through a very radical feminist stage about the time they leave home and discover what the world is really like. It can be a shock to realize how little respect some people have for women and how often one has to struggle with gender bias, and a lot of young women are exceedingly naive about men, especially regarding the difference between lust and like. There can be a lot of anger that has to be dealt with.

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[info]jordan179
2008-04-24 01:49 am UTC (link)
Does anyone know how old allecto is? Many young women go through a very radical feminist stage about the time they leave home and discover what the world is really like. It can be a shock to realize how little respect some people have for women and how often one has to struggle with gender bias, and a lot of young women are exceedingly naive about men, especially regarding the difference between lust and like. There can be a lot of anger that has to be dealt with.

These are the sorts of things that mothers are supposed to explain to daughters -- I suspect a lot of mothers have been neglecting the job. I am astonished sometimes how naive college-age women can be.

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[info]catness
2008-04-24 02:28 am UTC (link)
These are the sorts of things that mothers are supposed to explain to daughters

Er, if the mothers in question didn't get women's studies education, they probably don't know it's part of their mom curriculum.

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[info]jordan179
2008-04-24 05:56 am UTC (link)
No, I mean that the mothers are supposed to explain reality and men well enough to their daughters so that the daughters don't go out, have sex with random guys at parties, and then get broken-hearted when the guys don't act as if anything special happened. This is basic morality and common sense.

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ravengoddess34
2008-04-24 08:05 pm UTC (link)
I haven't watched Firefly, but just by reading the first few paragraphs of this person's blog (I didn't waste my time reading the entire thing as I've dealt with this type before)...Do you think this person may need counseling for a bad experience that may have happened in their life at one point? They are looking too deeply into a show, where if the roles had been reversed (gender wise), they probably wouldn't take the time to post such a long rant about how "sexist" it is. Would the show still be "fair"? I could say a *hell* of a lot more about the matter as I've actually known quite a few rape and abuse victims, as well as feminists who think it's their *right* to run around as an exhibitionist, and sleep with who ever they want, when they want, and so on...but I don't want to take up too much space though.
Your blog makes sense, and this other person needs to pull the stick out of their rear.

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[info]montieth
2008-04-24 08:18 pm UTC (link)
I haven't watched Firefly, but just by reading the first few paragraphs of this person's blog (I didn't waste my time reading the entire thing as I've dealt with this type before)...Do you think this person may need counseling for a bad experience that may have happened in their life at one point? They are looking too deeply into a show, where if the roles had been reversed (gender wise), they probably wouldn't take the time to post such a long rant about how "sexist" it is.

Part of the issue is that she doesn't understand command relationships at all. In the cited example of Mal telling Zoe to shut up is when they're going onboard a ship that's been apparently left to drift. He's thinking it's been taken by reavers. That is space going pirate cannibals that are quite horrible. He doesn't want his crew, those that are likely to be panicked by the thought to freeze up and get each other killed, either because they freeze when they need to stay mobile in mind and body OR that they panic and shoot someone that isn't a threat. That is, I expect partly why Zoe shuts up and realizes that she should have kept her mouth shut and her eyes more focused for threats since she, Mal and Jayne are the ones most able to deal with such threats.

Sometimes, being told what to do will save your life or other people's lives and this feminist just doesn't understand that at all. She's so fixated on courtesies and liberation that she misses the main point, staying alive.

The thing is, she also skips over a serious gender role issue that the Married couple has. Zoe is a soldier, a black woman and is married to Wash who is a pilot and not nearly as capable as she is in a fight. In fact, in one episode he's waxing enthusiastic about Mal's 'new wife' who's just cooked him a very nice meal and Zoe tells him that he better not be expecting such from her.

The show really seems to show all sides of problems and more than one perspective from the same side. Mal for example, when confronted with a subservient new 'wife' is utterly mortified. He doesn't want a servant for a wife. He is almost livid that she's not eaten any food and seems to expect to be treated as a chattel slave. He prefers equals in his bed and not an object to be used. Sadly such details are utterly missed.

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[info]mattcaron
2008-04-30 01:41 pm UTC (link)
My take on it is that she is attempting to distill the complex command/family relationships down to a sterile black/white (clarity here, not rate) situation which does not reflect the true dynamics of the situation. The Zoe/Mal dynamic is interesting because they are effectively all the family each other has. Remember - they are all volunteers and can quit the crew at any time. But, they are agreeing to take orders as part of being on the crew, and since Mal is the captain, he can order them around (within reason). The Wash/Zoe dynamic strikes me as a fairly normal relationship between geeky man and athletic wife. Such is the way of things. Further, she basically rules out any type of "proper" cross-race relationship.

Additionally, she makes issues out of things which clearly aren't. Race is not an issue to them - they're just folks. The fact that Zoe is black is not mentioned that I can remember, and folks are just folks. It's not an issue to them, but allecto makes it out to be. Personally, I find this is typically the case with these types of "help, help, I'm being repressed" types. They look for various ism's until they find anything which can be construed as that, no matter what the original intent. Remember - the fact that you didn't see it means that you are blind, not that it didn't happen. (Someone actually told my wife that when she said that she never encountered any sexism in the CS dept at URI, except on the part of students who were afraid of girls.. hence why the CS girls would hang out with the engineers other science students - they liked girls more than Starcraft).

Finally, she flat out ignores any contrary evidence. Mal tells Jayne to shut up on several occasions, but I'm sure she would say that Mal silencing Jayne in defense of Kaylee was an affront to Kaylee not being able to protect herself (except Kaylee is a shy gentle soul who is not wired that way, and it serves to show Mal's protective side, but those are moot points). Further, I'm sure if Mal had been cast as a woman, she wouldn't like that either. Can't you just imagine? "Whedon's portrayal of Captain Mel as bumbling and often wrong serves to only attack women in places of power. Further, the fact that she can't seem to do anything without her sidekick, Zack just shows that he really things that women can't do anything for themselves and need men along to help".

In conclusion, I think that allecto has had some traumatic experiences in her live and ultimately is just projecting her own issues on to the series.

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[info]freakchylde
2008-04-30 05:09 pm UTC (link)
I'm mostly in agreement with Matt. Finally got around to reading it, and it looks like she's trying to make an educated argument, minus the education - both in military structure and the history of "Courtesans" (who, btw, were predecessors to many modern day feminists - least, in actions). Her argument revolving around Inara is completely lost, as she's trying to reduce her to the level of a common whore, vs a woman who does have power - as we saw in the episode around the middle of the series when Kaylee gets to experiment with high society. I don't even think I even bring myself to deal with the headache in refuting her logic on Zoe (however easy that whole spiel will be).

As for her, well, sounds like she's spent too much time in the doledrums to really see the positive side of life and women's accomplishments. She's really coming off as someone who wants to perpetuate her station, by seeing it everywhere, instead of raising her station by dealing with it and overcoming.

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[info]freakchylde
2008-04-30 05:19 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and here's one that would blow her mind...particularly in relation to Inara and Mal - their interactions were all foreplay, as both of them are strong characters and need the challange from each other, because one is not going to willingly submit to the other, without the challange.

And ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, could I go on about the sexualization of powerful warrior women.....guess our dear writer does not, in the least, understand that the perspective relayed by Whedon is quite evident in our society. It's the way the wires work, and no ranting by a backwards feminist is going to change that.

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